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My partner's Star Trek headcanons
I'm trying out archiving some of my Tumblr meta here because I'm stepping back from Tumblr a bit and would like to have everything collected in my journal, maybe. So here's where I will collect various examples of my partner's elaborate headcanons about Star Trek that he will just casually drop on me.
On whether Ferengi have a notion of romantic love
One of my favorite things is when I loop my partner into whatever Star Trek-related thought I happen to be having in my mind and my partner just casually drops all his detailed worldbuilding headcanons on the subject in a long spiel and then gets upset at how I have managed to completely derail whatever he was doing/thinking about before. The most recent example of this:
Partner: (doing stuff on his computer)
Me: (thinking about my fic) I really think someone should write a detailed treatment of what Ferengi attitudes toward romantic love are.
Partner: (not realizing "someone" = him) What do you mean?
Me: Well, I mean there's obviously something kind of cold and transactional about the whole marriage contract thing and they don't seem to really value romantic relationships. But is that how ALL of society is or do you think that's just how some marriages are, but love marriages are more common in other parts of society?
Partner: No, I don't think they really have a notion of romantic love.
Me: What? Really? You don't think that some Ferengi value romantic relationships?
Partner: Well, I mean Rom and Quark obviously do, but they're deeply not doing the typical Ferengi thing, right? I think the widespread notion of romantic relationships among Ferengi is more, like, mutually beneficial exchange. For example, for a marriage, the wife gets financial stability and the husband gets children and a house servant, basically. It's very much a status symbol to be able to have a wife.
Me: Oh yeah, random, but Ferengi totally have dowries, right?
Partner: Oh yeah, definitely.
Me: But anyway, that's just marriages. What about outside of marriage?
Partner: I mean, I still think the same thing applies. Take Ishka and Zek, for example -- I think they are a very typical Ferengi relationship. Zek gets something out of that relationship which is that he gets to hang onto power longer. And what Ishka gets out of it is the ear of and being able to influence one of the most powerful people in the Ferengi Alliance. Mutually beneficial exchange.
Me: But I mean… Ishka did seem really heartbroken when Quark broke her and Zek up. Hm… but I suppose that DID hurt her bottom line… 🤔
Partner: Yeah, exactly. Like yeah, she was "heartbroken" -- over losing all that money!
Me: (remembering that bit in "The Emperor's New Cloak" where Quark suggests Zek is probably gallivanting on Risa and Rom is offended by the idea that he would do that to Moogie) Oh yeah, one thing I was wondering about is, do you think cheating is tolerated in Ferengi marriages?
Partner: For women, women cheating? Obviously no. Very bad.
Me: What about men, though?
Partner: I think it's just whatever. They might sleep with other women, but more than that, I mean, they travel on ships consisting entirely of horny men -- they are all having sex with each other all the time. But even then, it's very hierarchical. Like in ancient Greece, it matters a lot WHICH role you take in the sex.
Me:
Me: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Partner: (realizing he has somehow gotten into the topic of Ferengi gay sex headcanons) Oh my GOD, I was actually doing something! Good DAY.
This works so often and it is so funny.
(Tried to transcribe this from memory as best I could. I want to stress my partner had to do no thinking on any of these questions; he already had a formed opinion.)
On what explains the appearance of Changelings
Once again, I got my partner to do his casual detailed headcanon drop, except this time about Changelings.
Me: Do you think the Founders have a natural/default form when they become humanoid (which is what Odo looks like because he is still new to shifting) and that's why they look like that, or do you think they just looked at Odo and chose to appear to him in a form that resembled him?
Partner: Oh, the second one, absolutely. There's no particular way Changelings have to look if they want to be humanoid, so if they choose a form, it's because that's how they want to appear. So they looked at Odo and decided to look like him to make it clear they were related to him.
Me: I guess that makes sense of why the female founder has the same hairstyle as Odo, who just happens to have that hairstyle because he copied it from Mora?
Partner: Yeah.
Me: But what about Laas? (shows picture) He looks also like what Odo would have looked like if he were imitating a different alien species. It's like there's a template.
Partner: Laas saw Odo too and then decided to take on a form similar to him to be recognizable, but also with elements of the alien form he first imitated to make it clear he grew up around different people.
Me: What?! Hm... I guess that does square with the order of events. Okay, another question: What is up with the Female Changeling?
Partner: What do you mean?
Me: Like, why does she have gender. Why is she female if she is imitating Odo and Odo is male?
Partner: 100% pure emotional manipulation. She's learned that Odo is attracted to women and has an inexperienced teenager's interest in love and sex. She chooses to appear that way to be able to influence him better, and that's the form Founders adopt when they want to make it clear that someone is dealing with a Founder of the Dominion and that person knows of that group largely via Odo (e.g. anyone in the Alpha Quadrant).
None of these are my headcanon, but I'm just impressed he always has like a very defined idea whenever I ask him worldbuilding questions.
On the circumstances under which Rom and Nog came to DS9
And again (shorter this time):
Me: When do you think Rom and Nog came to Terok Nor or DS9 or whatever?
Partner: Huh, you're right, I have a very clear opinion on this but I don't know where it comes from. But I always figured that sometime before the series start, Rom had a breakdown after his wife died* and he couldn't work, so Quark took him and Nog in. As typical for Quark, he self-conceived of the gesture as him taking advantage of Rom's situation to more easily exploit him, but there was obviously an element of kindness to the act too.
* Me: His wife left him, not died, but yeah. Do you think it was like right before the series start/handover or like many years back that that happened?
Partner: Fairly recently. Rom doesn't appear in any Terok Nor flashbacks right? So yeah, after then.
(I'm just going to keep track of whenever my partner casually has a more detailed headcanon about my blorbos than I do somehow.)
On the possibility of Odo having an unrequited crush on Quark instead of the other way around
Another short one:
Me: Okay, so someone came up with the idea that Odo might have a crush on Quark but Quark wouldn't feel the same way. What do you think about that?
Partner: Oh yeah, that's how I see them, actually.
Me: (all ??? because I always write Quark with the one-sided crush on Odo) How do you see that working?
Partner: Well, Quark has a lot of experience. He's worked on a ship -- he's been around the block. Meanwhile, Odo is over here with an obsessive "I-it's not like I like you!" crush on Quark, because he's a teenage boy, whereas Quark is just like, "Okay."
Me: Huh. So do you see Quark being physically attracted to Odo, or there's just nothing there on his side at all?
Partner: Well, I mean, Quark likes Odo -- same as how he likes Bashir and Dax. He gets along with them, and he's a very DTF, right? So it's not like he would say no if asked. But yeah, I'm just saying, I don't think it's an unreasonable reading of Quark that he's just not interested in Odo in the same way Odo is interested in him.
On Quark's self-image and sense of masculinity
It happened again. These questions inspired by a Quodo fic with Quark headcanons that I find interesting but are absolutely not the way I see Quark.
Me: Do you think Quark is like... insecure or lacking in confidence?
Partner: No, kind of the opposite. He's the kind of guy who has always been the smartest person in the room growing up and knows it, but the rooms he's been have been entirely, like, sailors and petty crooks, so, professions that don't exactly select for the kind of cleverness Quark has. So if anything, Quark is always a bit cocky and more confident than is actually merited by the situation, because he often ends up interacting with people outside those groups and he is no longer the smartest guy in the room, but he hasn't updated yet. I actually think this is why Bashir likes Quark [another one of his headcanons], because he's familiar with the type of person who Quark is, because Bashir's dad is the same way.
Me: That's kind of a spicy take because the internet very strongly feels that Bashir HATES his dad, and so resembling his dad would not be a reason to like someone.
Partner: Oh no, it's not about liking or disliking. It's just that Bashir understands how Quark works because he's seen it before because he has a family member like that. Whereas O'Brien is just like "Shut up" toward Quark because he finds Quark's behavior deeply irritating.
Me: Do you think Quark is insecure about his masculinity because of his taste in women? Because like, Quark obviously is attracted to strong, confident women -- which he probably got from his mom, to be honest -- and that's very much not the traits of an ideal Ferengi wife.
Partner: Oh no, not at all. I mean, if you take a look at the women Quark likes -- Jadzia, that Cardassian lady, Grilka -- I mean... they're confident but also they're just pretty. It's not exactly a mystery why Quark is attracted to them. He wouldn't be at all embarrassed to have those crushes.
Me: Okay yeah, I was also thinking that it's a pretty established Ferengi trait that Ferengi are openly attracted to women who they view as transgressive [clothed, tall, warriors, non-submissive, etc.].
Partner: Yeah, all Ferengi men would pay an obscene amount of money for Tasha Yar to step on them. Being simpy is very much a species trait.
Me: So you don't think Quark would be insecure about his taste of women and how that reflects on his masculinity?
Partner: No, his taste in women is completely socially typical. If anything, the unusual thing about Quark is that he, because of his mother's influence, is unusually successful in the romantic arena with the type of women Ferengi like. So if anything, Quark would be an Alpha Chad Male among Ferengi.
Me: ... WHY would you say something so cursed?!
Then later, he sent me this image he generated using DALL-E and the prompt "cartoon of muscular alpha chad masculine goblin from star trek" (Partner: Apparently, DALL-E doesn't know what a Ferengi is, so I had to use "goblin" instead):
(WHY???)
On Brunt and whether an aristocracy exists in Ferengi society
Here we go again, lol.
Me: How would you characterize Brunt's behavior toward Quark?
Partner: Jealousy. So basically, Quark is kind of living the ideal Ferengi life even if he's not that rich. He's a small business owner, an entrepreneur, he's lived a very adventurous, exciting life, first on a ship, then running guns in a warzone, then doing business on a new frontier, all while having a string of romances with various enviable love interests. So basically, Brunt is jealous because Quark is actually living a very fulfilled life in a specifically Ferengi way, moreso than Brunt is.
Me: I always thought it was the Ferengi equivalent of repressed homosexuality. Like, Brunt finds social trangression really hot, so he spends all his time complaining about how DEVIANT certain Ferengi are and how much this DISTURBS him, but to everyone else it's obvious he just kinks on it. He's like conservatives who post 24/7 about how gross gay porn is and it's everywhere and so easy to stumble on and this is so disturbing and they keep talking about it and you're just like, "It's okay -- you can just say that you find gay sex hot."
Partner: I mean, I can definitely see that read. But I think another thing that is going on is that Brunt is rich but he became rich by being a bureaucrat. In Ferengi society, wealth is just a way of keeping score in a larger game -- that larger game involves engaging in risky business ventures and gambles, and displaying your business acumen by "winning."* In that sense, Quark is very much playing the Ferengi game, but Brunt, a bureaucrat who is racking up the score (total wealth) but without any risk-taking would deeply be seen as not playing the game. Rather, he is using a "cheat code" in order to get the appearance of being good at business (wealth) while not actually demonstrating any business acumen. So his behavior and lifestyle would be looked down upon. In general, someone in the FCA would be feared because the FCA has the ability to ruin people, but that occupation would also be seen as somewhat contemptuous by other Ferengi at the same time. Ferengi hate FCA agents.
Me: Oh yeah, speaking of which, don't you think Brunt comes off as very nouveau-riche?
Partner: I mean, yes, Brunt is certainly coded that way. But I don't see how being nouveau riche actually works with Ferengi worldbuilding... Ferengi society is hypercapitalist -- so everyone is nouveau riche. There's no such thing as old money.
Me: Really? I can see there being a segment of Ferengi society that doesn't actually like to take risks and instead likes to quietly accumulate their wealth in safe ventures and not risk any of it. And probably the FCA is heavily populated by children of those families because it's an easy job that they're able to set their children up with through nepotism.
Partner: We really don't see any examples of that though. All the wealthy and powerful Ferengi we see [Zek, Nilva, etc.], are playing the Ferengi game. You would need to do that in order to be seen as actually successful in Ferengi society. And Ferengi inheritance...
Me: Yes, tell me more about your headcanons on Ferengi inheritance.
Partner: Well, for sure there is no inheritance tax. Individual people are allowed to leave their money to whoever they like, but by tradition, I assume it's split in some way among male relatives. All of that is to say that that form of inheritance law should lead to dynasties but it doesn't in Ferengi society because Ferengi are risk-seeking.
[After a lot of back and forth on this point:]
Partner: Okay, actually, there could be Ferengi like this [Ferengi aristocrats passing wealth to their children], but they would be seen as a mix between Murder Ferengi [he means Leck] and Brunt: They're like Leck in the sense that you CAN do that, I suppose, but they are doing something deeply unusual and weird for Ferengi society. And they're like Brunt in the sense that you don't want to mess with them because they have a lot of money, which translates into power, but they are seen as somewhat contemptible.
Me: How rich do you think Brunt is?
Partner: Insanely rich.
Me: What? I mean, I know he's definitely richer than Quark but like a lot or a LOT?
Partner: A lot. I mean, the FCA probably doesn't pay much but agents probably go around threatening various politicians to look into their finances more carefully unless the politician gives them a generous kickback. It's shown that FCA liquidators are willing to go from zero to "bringing in mercenary assassins" very quickly, so yeah, unless Brunt is really bad at his job, he's got a ton of money.
Me: Huh, I always thought the FCA was meant to be the IRS of Ferengi society but they're really more like cops or the city guard -- a kind of rival power base that could plausibly check the power of the nagus and who everyone else generally hates because they're bullies.
Partner: Yes.
(Kind of makes my "Brunt = Ferengi equivalent of Odo" headcanon even stronger.)
* My partner has an elaborate headcanon that he has developed and shared with me earlier, which is that the Ferengi are a culture of risk-seekers. That is, people who finding engaging in risky behavior intrinsically rewarding/desirable. While they talk a lot about profit, profit is not actually the ultimate end of a Ferengi (because being risk-taking is actually detrimental to profit in a lot of cases), but more just a metric that they use in order to figure out how skillful Ferengi are at a particular activity (engaging in business ventures with the possibility of failure). I only just now realize the thoughts I wrote up in that post came out of this earlier conversation I had with my partner, where he did another instance of his "casual super detailed headcanon drop" behavior... (This was in response to me asking about why the Ferengi have such a ridiculous "The riskier the road, the greater the profit" rule.)
On Ferengi marriage
Me: Do you think Ferengi men and women have sex/relationships before marriage?
Partner: I mean, it's clearly discouraged, but no culture anywhere has been able to stop young horny people from having sex.
Me: So then how do people find partners to marry?
Partner: Arranged marriages. I assume the father (or male family member with custody) of the woman basically uses networks to advertise he has a marriageable daughter (or whatever).
Me: Trying to make a sale.
Partner: Yeah.
Me: What qualities are people looking for in a wife then?
Partner: Household skills, looks, in some cases, status.
Me: Is gay marriage a thing in Ferenginar?
Partner: No. Marriage is so much geared toward a specific purpose, which is to get a servant, basically. Given what we know from the show -- Pel coming onto Quark as a guy and it not really being a big deal until she revealed she's a woman doing business, horny male Ferengi on ships together, etc. -- relationships between men aren't unusual, but there's no reason for a guy in a relationship like that to get married. They can have sex outside of marriage and marriage would just result in a drop in status for one of them. There's no benefit at all so no reason to agree to it.
Me: I also thought gay marriage wouldn't be a thing, but mainly because of the suspicion that gay marriage and feminism tend to go hand in hand, so you wouldn't see gay marriage without a strong feminist movement.
Partner: Yes, that's true. But the connection is that with marriage roles being so skewed, it's just a bad deal for one of the parties, hence why no guy would go for it.
Me: What about gay marriages between women?
Partner: Doesn't conceptually make sense. Marriage is a contract between men [husband + male custodian of the bride]. Women don't make contracts.
Me: What about just relationships though?
Partner: Probably technically not allowed but I'm guessing it's the kind of situation where because of the sexism, women can fly under the radar because people don't really think about it that much and some just don't understand that it's something that women might do.
Me: What about Quark and Odo -- do you think Quark would ever want to get married to Odo?
Partner: Not really. Again, from a Ferengi point of view, there's not really anything you get from marriage that you couldn't have outside of a marriage. Quark is familiar with other cultures' forms of marriages but to him without a contract, all it amounts to is just a big party. That's it. He'd be neutral about it. Like, yeah, if you want to have a party to celebrate our relationship, we can have a party. He'd be willing to enter into a marriage contract as long as there's a pre-nup.
Me: What about Odo -- would Odo want to get married to Quark?
Partner: I don't actually know what the Bajoran attitude toward marriage is. Do we ever see anyone other than Leeta get married? And that marriage may have been being driven forward by Rom... And for Ferengi, marriage IS normative. Well, whatever the cultural norm for Bajorans is, that's what Odo would want. Of course, he would study all the practices of a bunch of other cultures -- one way in which he is similar to Data -- protest how he doesn't understand humanoid rituals, and then somehow land on whatever is completely culturally typical for Bajoran culture as making the most sense.
Me: I think Quark might be interested in a marriage contract with Odo as a way to keep him around.
Partner: Okay, yeah, I can see it being like how it is in your fic, where it's a cheeky joke on Quark's part to suggest a ridiculous contract. And if Odo is willing to sign it, hey, that's even better.
Is Quark a thief?
Me: So in the first episode of DS9, Odo states that Quark is a thief, and then Quark vehemently denies it. What do you think explains their disagreement here?
Partner: Uhhh Odo is telling the truth and Quark is lying?
Me: Okay but Quark seems unusually earnest here. Is he doing that thing where he's just implausibly pretending to be innocent or is he actually telling the truth?
Partner: Okay more seriously, I think what's going on here is that Quark is probably making a fine distinction between his activities and theft, but to Odo it's all the same. Like, we know that Quark engages in wage theft. But that's standard Ferengi business practice. He also facilitates theft -- he finds buyers for stolen goods. He's a fence, basically. But is he the one actually physically doing the stealing? No, because that's manual labor -- that's beneath him. It's just like Nog being annoyed at getting land instead of latinum [in 1x15 "Progress"] -- "Land? Dirt!" Successful Ferengi want to engage in business and exchange, not labor. So stealing vs. selling stolen goods is a fine distinction that means something to Quark, but Odo considers Quark as obviously part of the theft ecosystem and so doesn't think that's a distinction worth making.
Me: What about instructing other people to steal, though? Like, in this episode it's strongly implied that Quark told Nog to do the stealing that landed him in jail. But then Quark always does that thing where he's like "How could you do that?!" so it's hard to tell.
Partner: I think it's plausible that Quark would ask Nog to steal, but in this episode, I think Nog did that on his own. We know that Nog is a guy kind of trying to make a name for himself, so it seems plausible to me that Nog came up with this plan himself -- he's all about those shenanigans. Meanwhile, Quark just wants to leave the station so he doesn't want Nog to do anything that would make leaving harder, so he'd just be like, "Nog, leave it, we're going."
Me: We also know that Quark won't steal belongings from people in his bar, but if you lose something in his bar and he finds it, he'll lie and say he couldn't find it. Or when there's a chaotic situation and the station is transferring hands and things "go missing" during that time, Ferengi are probably involved in that.
Partner: Yes, whenever there's an unclear ownership situation, then Ferengi consider it just obvious good business that you would stake a claim in that situation.
On Ferengi attitude/obligations to family
It happened again... I had a question about Ferengi attitudes toward family from watching the pilot and wondering how to square general Ferengi ruthlessness toward family and how Sisko knew (seemingly solely on the basis that Quark is a Ferengi) that Quark would feel pressured to stay in order to keep Nog out of trouble.
Me: Do you have an answer to the question in my comment?
Partner: Oh yeah, I just thought that was because there's a difference between adults and children. Adult family members are potential business rivals; children are assets.
Me: What do you mean, children are assets?
Partner: Children have value to their parents -- they're a cheap source of labor, can be married off later, and so on. So Sisko taking Nog into custody is like stealing.
Me: Ohh you mean they're like property, so "you're not allowed to mess with my property... but I can treat my property how I like."
Partner: Yeah. Also, it's important for a society to have something to encourage people to take care of children while they're not particularly productive, and Ferengi society has settled on this. But I don't think adult Ferengi family members are particularly antagonistic toward each other -- it's just that they're more likely to regard each other as competition than an adult and child.
Me: I think that's actually close to my honor culture answer, then. I think societies where women and children are considered the property of the patriarch of the family also tend to develop honor cultures involving outsider treatment of family members. Probably for this reason.
Partner: Yeah. Also, while Nog is technically Rom's asset because he's Rom's son... you know he's really actually Quark's asset, and Quark acts on that basis.
How many Changelings are in the Alpha Quadrant
It happened again... Because I was watching 3x26 "The Adversary":
Me: In this episode, the Changeling saboteur tells Odo just before he dies, "You're too late. We are everywhere," and it ends on a dramatic note when Odo relays this info to Sisko. But like... is that actually true or is it just pure mind game/paranoia-sowing?
Partner: Pure mind game. We've seen in other episodes that it's generally part of the Founders' playbook that they use paranoia and uncertainty in order sow chaos. One of the few advantages that Changelings have is that you can't tell when they're there, right? And conversely, I think one of their main disadvantages is that there is a very limited number of them. I don't know how often they reproduce but I'm guessing it's not a lot. So there aren't actually a lot of Changelings and they can't be everywhere, so their best option is to bluff and give the impression that they're more widespread than they can actually be.
Me: Hm yeah, that makes sense. I was also doubting that statement...
On whether Ferengi have a notion of romantic love
One of my favorite things is when I loop my partner into whatever Star Trek-related thought I happen to be having in my mind and my partner just casually drops all his detailed worldbuilding headcanons on the subject in a long spiel and then gets upset at how I have managed to completely derail whatever he was doing/thinking about before. The most recent example of this:
Partner: (doing stuff on his computer)
Me: (thinking about my fic) I really think someone should write a detailed treatment of what Ferengi attitudes toward romantic love are.
Partner: (not realizing "someone" = him) What do you mean?
Me: Well, I mean there's obviously something kind of cold and transactional about the whole marriage contract thing and they don't seem to really value romantic relationships. But is that how ALL of society is or do you think that's just how some marriages are, but love marriages are more common in other parts of society?
Partner: No, I don't think they really have a notion of romantic love.
Me: What? Really? You don't think that some Ferengi value romantic relationships?
Partner: Well, I mean Rom and Quark obviously do, but they're deeply not doing the typical Ferengi thing, right? I think the widespread notion of romantic relationships among Ferengi is more, like, mutually beneficial exchange. For example, for a marriage, the wife gets financial stability and the husband gets children and a house servant, basically. It's very much a status symbol to be able to have a wife.
Me: Oh yeah, random, but Ferengi totally have dowries, right?
Partner: Oh yeah, definitely.
Me: But anyway, that's just marriages. What about outside of marriage?
Partner: I mean, I still think the same thing applies. Take Ishka and Zek, for example -- I think they are a very typical Ferengi relationship. Zek gets something out of that relationship which is that he gets to hang onto power longer. And what Ishka gets out of it is the ear of and being able to influence one of the most powerful people in the Ferengi Alliance. Mutually beneficial exchange.
Me: But I mean… Ishka did seem really heartbroken when Quark broke her and Zek up. Hm… but I suppose that DID hurt her bottom line… 🤔
Partner: Yeah, exactly. Like yeah, she was "heartbroken" -- over losing all that money!
Me: (remembering that bit in "The Emperor's New Cloak" where Quark suggests Zek is probably gallivanting on Risa and Rom is offended by the idea that he would do that to Moogie) Oh yeah, one thing I was wondering about is, do you think cheating is tolerated in Ferengi marriages?
Partner: For women, women cheating? Obviously no. Very bad.
Me: What about men, though?
Partner: I think it's just whatever. They might sleep with other women, but more than that, I mean, they travel on ships consisting entirely of horny men -- they are all having sex with each other all the time. But even then, it's very hierarchical. Like in ancient Greece, it matters a lot WHICH role you take in the sex.
Me:
Me: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Partner: (realizing he has somehow gotten into the topic of Ferengi gay sex headcanons) Oh my GOD, I was actually doing something! Good DAY.
This works so often and it is so funny.
(Tried to transcribe this from memory as best I could. I want to stress my partner had to do no thinking on any of these questions; he already had a formed opinion.)
On what explains the appearance of Changelings
Once again, I got my partner to do his casual detailed headcanon drop, except this time about Changelings.
Me: Do you think the Founders have a natural/default form when they become humanoid (which is what Odo looks like because he is still new to shifting) and that's why they look like that, or do you think they just looked at Odo and chose to appear to him in a form that resembled him?
Partner: Oh, the second one, absolutely. There's no particular way Changelings have to look if they want to be humanoid, so if they choose a form, it's because that's how they want to appear. So they looked at Odo and decided to look like him to make it clear they were related to him.
Me: I guess that makes sense of why the female founder has the same hairstyle as Odo, who just happens to have that hairstyle because he copied it from Mora?
Partner: Yeah.
Me: But what about Laas? (shows picture) He looks also like what Odo would have looked like if he were imitating a different alien species. It's like there's a template.
Partner: Laas saw Odo too and then decided to take on a form similar to him to be recognizable, but also with elements of the alien form he first imitated to make it clear he grew up around different people.
Me: What?! Hm... I guess that does square with the order of events. Okay, another question: What is up with the Female Changeling?
Partner: What do you mean?
Me: Like, why does she have gender. Why is she female if she is imitating Odo and Odo is male?
Partner: 100% pure emotional manipulation. She's learned that Odo is attracted to women and has an inexperienced teenager's interest in love and sex. She chooses to appear that way to be able to influence him better, and that's the form Founders adopt when they want to make it clear that someone is dealing with a Founder of the Dominion and that person knows of that group largely via Odo (e.g. anyone in the Alpha Quadrant).
None of these are my headcanon, but I'm just impressed he always has like a very defined idea whenever I ask him worldbuilding questions.
On the circumstances under which Rom and Nog came to DS9
And again (shorter this time):
Me: When do you think Rom and Nog came to Terok Nor or DS9 or whatever?
Partner: Huh, you're right, I have a very clear opinion on this but I don't know where it comes from. But I always figured that sometime before the series start, Rom had a breakdown after his wife died* and he couldn't work, so Quark took him and Nog in. As typical for Quark, he self-conceived of the gesture as him taking advantage of Rom's situation to more easily exploit him, but there was obviously an element of kindness to the act too.
* Me: His wife left him, not died, but yeah. Do you think it was like right before the series start/handover or like many years back that that happened?
Partner: Fairly recently. Rom doesn't appear in any Terok Nor flashbacks right? So yeah, after then.
(I'm just going to keep track of whenever my partner casually has a more detailed headcanon about my blorbos than I do somehow.)
On the possibility of Odo having an unrequited crush on Quark instead of the other way around
Another short one:
Me: Okay, so someone came up with the idea that Odo might have a crush on Quark but Quark wouldn't feel the same way. What do you think about that?
Partner: Oh yeah, that's how I see them, actually.
Me: (all ??? because I always write Quark with the one-sided crush on Odo) How do you see that working?
Partner: Well, Quark has a lot of experience. He's worked on a ship -- he's been around the block. Meanwhile, Odo is over here with an obsessive "I-it's not like I like you!" crush on Quark, because he's a teenage boy, whereas Quark is just like, "Okay."
Me: Huh. So do you see Quark being physically attracted to Odo, or there's just nothing there on his side at all?
Partner: Well, I mean, Quark likes Odo -- same as how he likes Bashir and Dax. He gets along with them, and he's a very DTF, right? So it's not like he would say no if asked. But yeah, I'm just saying, I don't think it's an unreasonable reading of Quark that he's just not interested in Odo in the same way Odo is interested in him.
On Quark's self-image and sense of masculinity
It happened again. These questions inspired by a Quodo fic with Quark headcanons that I find interesting but are absolutely not the way I see Quark.
Me: Do you think Quark is like... insecure or lacking in confidence?
Partner: No, kind of the opposite. He's the kind of guy who has always been the smartest person in the room growing up and knows it, but the rooms he's been have been entirely, like, sailors and petty crooks, so, professions that don't exactly select for the kind of cleverness Quark has. So if anything, Quark is always a bit cocky and more confident than is actually merited by the situation, because he often ends up interacting with people outside those groups and he is no longer the smartest guy in the room, but he hasn't updated yet. I actually think this is why Bashir likes Quark [another one of his headcanons], because he's familiar with the type of person who Quark is, because Bashir's dad is the same way.
Me: That's kind of a spicy take because the internet very strongly feels that Bashir HATES his dad, and so resembling his dad would not be a reason to like someone.
Partner: Oh no, it's not about liking or disliking. It's just that Bashir understands how Quark works because he's seen it before because he has a family member like that. Whereas O'Brien is just like "Shut up" toward Quark because he finds Quark's behavior deeply irritating.
Me: Do you think Quark is insecure about his masculinity because of his taste in women? Because like, Quark obviously is attracted to strong, confident women -- which he probably got from his mom, to be honest -- and that's very much not the traits of an ideal Ferengi wife.
Partner: Oh no, not at all. I mean, if you take a look at the women Quark likes -- Jadzia, that Cardassian lady, Grilka -- I mean... they're confident but also they're just pretty. It's not exactly a mystery why Quark is attracted to them. He wouldn't be at all embarrassed to have those crushes.
Me: Okay yeah, I was also thinking that it's a pretty established Ferengi trait that Ferengi are openly attracted to women who they view as transgressive [clothed, tall, warriors, non-submissive, etc.].
Partner: Yeah, all Ferengi men would pay an obscene amount of money for Tasha Yar to step on them. Being simpy is very much a species trait.
Me: So you don't think Quark would be insecure about his taste of women and how that reflects on his masculinity?
Partner: No, his taste in women is completely socially typical. If anything, the unusual thing about Quark is that he, because of his mother's influence, is unusually successful in the romantic arena with the type of women Ferengi like. So if anything, Quark would be an Alpha Chad Male among Ferengi.
Me: ... WHY would you say something so cursed?!
Then later, he sent me this image he generated using DALL-E and the prompt "cartoon of muscular alpha chad masculine goblin from star trek" (Partner: Apparently, DALL-E doesn't know what a Ferengi is, so I had to use "goblin" instead):
(WHY???)
On Brunt and whether an aristocracy exists in Ferengi society
Here we go again, lol.
Me: How would you characterize Brunt's behavior toward Quark?
Partner: Jealousy. So basically, Quark is kind of living the ideal Ferengi life even if he's not that rich. He's a small business owner, an entrepreneur, he's lived a very adventurous, exciting life, first on a ship, then running guns in a warzone, then doing business on a new frontier, all while having a string of romances with various enviable love interests. So basically, Brunt is jealous because Quark is actually living a very fulfilled life in a specifically Ferengi way, moreso than Brunt is.
Me: I always thought it was the Ferengi equivalent of repressed homosexuality. Like, Brunt finds social trangression really hot, so he spends all his time complaining about how DEVIANT certain Ferengi are and how much this DISTURBS him, but to everyone else it's obvious he just kinks on it. He's like conservatives who post 24/7 about how gross gay porn is and it's everywhere and so easy to stumble on and this is so disturbing and they keep talking about it and you're just like, "It's okay -- you can just say that you find gay sex hot."
Partner: I mean, I can definitely see that read. But I think another thing that is going on is that Brunt is rich but he became rich by being a bureaucrat. In Ferengi society, wealth is just a way of keeping score in a larger game -- that larger game involves engaging in risky business ventures and gambles, and displaying your business acumen by "winning."* In that sense, Quark is very much playing the Ferengi game, but Brunt, a bureaucrat who is racking up the score (total wealth) but without any risk-taking would deeply be seen as not playing the game. Rather, he is using a "cheat code" in order to get the appearance of being good at business (wealth) while not actually demonstrating any business acumen. So his behavior and lifestyle would be looked down upon. In general, someone in the FCA would be feared because the FCA has the ability to ruin people, but that occupation would also be seen as somewhat contemptuous by other Ferengi at the same time. Ferengi hate FCA agents.
Me: Oh yeah, speaking of which, don't you think Brunt comes off as very nouveau-riche?
Partner: I mean, yes, Brunt is certainly coded that way. But I don't see how being nouveau riche actually works with Ferengi worldbuilding... Ferengi society is hypercapitalist -- so everyone is nouveau riche. There's no such thing as old money.
Me: Really? I can see there being a segment of Ferengi society that doesn't actually like to take risks and instead likes to quietly accumulate their wealth in safe ventures and not risk any of it. And probably the FCA is heavily populated by children of those families because it's an easy job that they're able to set their children up with through nepotism.
Partner: We really don't see any examples of that though. All the wealthy and powerful Ferengi we see [Zek, Nilva, etc.], are playing the Ferengi game. You would need to do that in order to be seen as actually successful in Ferengi society. And Ferengi inheritance...
Me: Yes, tell me more about your headcanons on Ferengi inheritance.
Partner: Well, for sure there is no inheritance tax. Individual people are allowed to leave their money to whoever they like, but by tradition, I assume it's split in some way among male relatives. All of that is to say that that form of inheritance law should lead to dynasties but it doesn't in Ferengi society because Ferengi are risk-seeking.
[After a lot of back and forth on this point:]
Partner: Okay, actually, there could be Ferengi like this [Ferengi aristocrats passing wealth to their children], but they would be seen as a mix between Murder Ferengi [he means Leck] and Brunt: They're like Leck in the sense that you CAN do that, I suppose, but they are doing something deeply unusual and weird for Ferengi society. And they're like Brunt in the sense that you don't want to mess with them because they have a lot of money, which translates into power, but they are seen as somewhat contemptible.
Me: How rich do you think Brunt is?
Partner: Insanely rich.
Me: What? I mean, I know he's definitely richer than Quark but like a lot or a LOT?
Partner: A lot. I mean, the FCA probably doesn't pay much but agents probably go around threatening various politicians to look into their finances more carefully unless the politician gives them a generous kickback. It's shown that FCA liquidators are willing to go from zero to "bringing in mercenary assassins" very quickly, so yeah, unless Brunt is really bad at his job, he's got a ton of money.
Me: Huh, I always thought the FCA was meant to be the IRS of Ferengi society but they're really more like cops or the city guard -- a kind of rival power base that could plausibly check the power of the nagus and who everyone else generally hates because they're bullies.
Partner: Yes.
(Kind of makes my "Brunt = Ferengi equivalent of Odo" headcanon even stronger.)
* My partner has an elaborate headcanon that he has developed and shared with me earlier, which is that the Ferengi are a culture of risk-seekers. That is, people who finding engaging in risky behavior intrinsically rewarding/desirable. While they talk a lot about profit, profit is not actually the ultimate end of a Ferengi (because being risk-taking is actually detrimental to profit in a lot of cases), but more just a metric that they use in order to figure out how skillful Ferengi are at a particular activity (engaging in business ventures with the possibility of failure). I only just now realize the thoughts I wrote up in that post came out of this earlier conversation I had with my partner, where he did another instance of his "casual super detailed headcanon drop" behavior... (This was in response to me asking about why the Ferengi have such a ridiculous "The riskier the road, the greater the profit" rule.)
On Ferengi marriage
Me: Do you think Ferengi men and women have sex/relationships before marriage?
Partner: I mean, it's clearly discouraged, but no culture anywhere has been able to stop young horny people from having sex.
Me: So then how do people find partners to marry?
Partner: Arranged marriages. I assume the father (or male family member with custody) of the woman basically uses networks to advertise he has a marriageable daughter (or whatever).
Me: Trying to make a sale.
Partner: Yeah.
Me: What qualities are people looking for in a wife then?
Partner: Household skills, looks, in some cases, status.
Me: Is gay marriage a thing in Ferenginar?
Partner: No. Marriage is so much geared toward a specific purpose, which is to get a servant, basically. Given what we know from the show -- Pel coming onto Quark as a guy and it not really being a big deal until she revealed she's a woman doing business, horny male Ferengi on ships together, etc. -- relationships between men aren't unusual, but there's no reason for a guy in a relationship like that to get married. They can have sex outside of marriage and marriage would just result in a drop in status for one of them. There's no benefit at all so no reason to agree to it.
Me: I also thought gay marriage wouldn't be a thing, but mainly because of the suspicion that gay marriage and feminism tend to go hand in hand, so you wouldn't see gay marriage without a strong feminist movement.
Partner: Yes, that's true. But the connection is that with marriage roles being so skewed, it's just a bad deal for one of the parties, hence why no guy would go for it.
Me: What about gay marriages between women?
Partner: Doesn't conceptually make sense. Marriage is a contract between men [husband + male custodian of the bride]. Women don't make contracts.
Me: What about just relationships though?
Partner: Probably technically not allowed but I'm guessing it's the kind of situation where because of the sexism, women can fly under the radar because people don't really think about it that much and some just don't understand that it's something that women might do.
Me: What about Quark and Odo -- do you think Quark would ever want to get married to Odo?
Partner: Not really. Again, from a Ferengi point of view, there's not really anything you get from marriage that you couldn't have outside of a marriage. Quark is familiar with other cultures' forms of marriages but to him without a contract, all it amounts to is just a big party. That's it. He'd be neutral about it. Like, yeah, if you want to have a party to celebrate our relationship, we can have a party. He'd be willing to enter into a marriage contract as long as there's a pre-nup.
Me: What about Odo -- would Odo want to get married to Quark?
Partner: I don't actually know what the Bajoran attitude toward marriage is. Do we ever see anyone other than Leeta get married? And that marriage may have been being driven forward by Rom... And for Ferengi, marriage IS normative. Well, whatever the cultural norm for Bajorans is, that's what Odo would want. Of course, he would study all the practices of a bunch of other cultures -- one way in which he is similar to Data -- protest how he doesn't understand humanoid rituals, and then somehow land on whatever is completely culturally typical for Bajoran culture as making the most sense.
Me: I think Quark might be interested in a marriage contract with Odo as a way to keep him around.
Partner: Okay, yeah, I can see it being like how it is in your fic, where it's a cheeky joke on Quark's part to suggest a ridiculous contract. And if Odo is willing to sign it, hey, that's even better.
Is Quark a thief?
Me: So in the first episode of DS9, Odo states that Quark is a thief, and then Quark vehemently denies it. What do you think explains their disagreement here?
Partner: Uhhh Odo is telling the truth and Quark is lying?
Me: Okay but Quark seems unusually earnest here. Is he doing that thing where he's just implausibly pretending to be innocent or is he actually telling the truth?
Partner: Okay more seriously, I think what's going on here is that Quark is probably making a fine distinction between his activities and theft, but to Odo it's all the same. Like, we know that Quark engages in wage theft. But that's standard Ferengi business practice. He also facilitates theft -- he finds buyers for stolen goods. He's a fence, basically. But is he the one actually physically doing the stealing? No, because that's manual labor -- that's beneath him. It's just like Nog being annoyed at getting land instead of latinum [in 1x15 "Progress"] -- "Land? Dirt!" Successful Ferengi want to engage in business and exchange, not labor. So stealing vs. selling stolen goods is a fine distinction that means something to Quark, but Odo considers Quark as obviously part of the theft ecosystem and so doesn't think that's a distinction worth making.
Me: What about instructing other people to steal, though? Like, in this episode it's strongly implied that Quark told Nog to do the stealing that landed him in jail. But then Quark always does that thing where he's like "How could you do that?!" so it's hard to tell.
Partner: I think it's plausible that Quark would ask Nog to steal, but in this episode, I think Nog did that on his own. We know that Nog is a guy kind of trying to make a name for himself, so it seems plausible to me that Nog came up with this plan himself -- he's all about those shenanigans. Meanwhile, Quark just wants to leave the station so he doesn't want Nog to do anything that would make leaving harder, so he'd just be like, "Nog, leave it, we're going."
Me: We also know that Quark won't steal belongings from people in his bar, but if you lose something in his bar and he finds it, he'll lie and say he couldn't find it. Or when there's a chaotic situation and the station is transferring hands and things "go missing" during that time, Ferengi are probably involved in that.
Partner: Yes, whenever there's an unclear ownership situation, then Ferengi consider it just obvious good business that you would stake a claim in that situation.
On Ferengi attitude/obligations to family
It happened again... I had a question about Ferengi attitudes toward family from watching the pilot and wondering how to square general Ferengi ruthlessness toward family and how Sisko knew (seemingly solely on the basis that Quark is a Ferengi) that Quark would feel pressured to stay in order to keep Nog out of trouble.
Me: Do you have an answer to the question in my comment?
Partner: Oh yeah, I just thought that was because there's a difference between adults and children. Adult family members are potential business rivals; children are assets.
Me: What do you mean, children are assets?
Partner: Children have value to their parents -- they're a cheap source of labor, can be married off later, and so on. So Sisko taking Nog into custody is like stealing.
Me: Ohh you mean they're like property, so "you're not allowed to mess with my property... but I can treat my property how I like."
Partner: Yeah. Also, it's important for a society to have something to encourage people to take care of children while they're not particularly productive, and Ferengi society has settled on this. But I don't think adult Ferengi family members are particularly antagonistic toward each other -- it's just that they're more likely to regard each other as competition than an adult and child.
Me: I think that's actually close to my honor culture answer, then. I think societies where women and children are considered the property of the patriarch of the family also tend to develop honor cultures involving outsider treatment of family members. Probably for this reason.
Partner: Yeah. Also, while Nog is technically Rom's asset because he's Rom's son... you know he's really actually Quark's asset, and Quark acts on that basis.
How many Changelings are in the Alpha Quadrant
It happened again... Because I was watching 3x26 "The Adversary":
Me: In this episode, the Changeling saboteur tells Odo just before he dies, "You're too late. We are everywhere," and it ends on a dramatic note when Odo relays this info to Sisko. But like... is that actually true or is it just pure mind game/paranoia-sowing?
Partner: Pure mind game. We've seen in other episodes that it's generally part of the Founders' playbook that they use paranoia and uncertainty in order sow chaos. One of the few advantages that Changelings have is that you can't tell when they're there, right? And conversely, I think one of their main disadvantages is that there is a very limited number of them. I don't know how often they reproduce but I'm guessing it's not a lot. So there aren't actually a lot of Changelings and they can't be everywhere, so their best option is to bluff and give the impression that they're more widespread than they can actually be.
Me: Hm yeah, that makes sense. I was also doubting that statement...
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